About rating songs

[japanesebaby]

so there's no contradiction in me listening to opeth and not getting all emotionally charged every time just because the music is emotionally charged. i can choose to pay attention to something else than that (you see, i refuse to be the slave )

You can actually manage to escape the slavery of emotions only to find yourself captured by the claws of reason... It can happen, you know? 

sure. actually, either one (emotion or reason) can be a just as terrible master, if you're stuck with it and let it enslave you... but both become bearable when you have the possibility to choose and move between the two at will.
so it's all about the choice - and whether or not you are aware that you have a choice...


(in a way, our habits of listening to music are just one example of the many many forms of voluntary enslavement we've submitted ourselves into...)

[firecrasher]

You can also complicate it a bit more and focus on the way some instruments interact - bass guitar and drums, or rhythm and solo guitar, for instance.
Or you can try and detect what specific feature of the song gets your emotional response. Sometimes there's even only a small transition note there that makes all the difference - in "Open" and "Bloodflowers" (which are not masterpieces for me) such a thing happens with the bass guitar line...

Backing up a bit... I know people who find Disintegration boring (esp the late middle) because the songs are similarly paced and mainly based on the same riff. You have to give Simon a lot of respect for playing "The Same Deep Water As You" for 9 minutes (watch his hands on Trilogy). The million layers of "Fascination Street" are also based on the same bassline.

"Open" is a very dark song lyrically, but sounds much more "pop" than a lot of Disintegration, so it's probably dismissed by a lot of people as being more shallow.

As for "Bloodflowers"... the lyrics don't really do much for me, but the solo just grips and doesn't let go. It's not technically difficult, I've sat at home and played it, but the combination of tone and melody evokes a HUGE emotional response. To the point where I get chills just hearing the intro (and drums through a flanger. Awesome).

[revolt]

Or you can try and detect what specific feature of the song gets your emotional response. Sometimes there's even only a small transition note there that makes all the difference - in "Open" and "Bloodflowers" (which are not masterpieces for me) such a thing happens with the bass guitar line...

The detail I was talking about concerning 'Bloodflowers' is the bass inflection at 39 seconds into the following recording:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXUl6QU07VM

It's the way it modifies the main bassline that had been heard twice up to that point that really does it for me.

[japanesebaby]

The thing is, you can also chose to analyse "crap' music. Celine Dion's songs have a structure too, they have arrangements that can be stripped down to their main elements and then appreciated, and so on... (actually , Dion's 90's albums are produced by Jannick Top, Magma's genius bassist, so even if they are crap there must be some 'science' to it...)

i think the "science" is that those songs are written by professionals who can write a decent song (in that sort of genre) anyday, anytime, insideout and upsidedown. so there's surely professionalism there, i don't deny it. but the way that's been utilized, that's another thing... celine dion songs are not crap because they lacked coherence and structure. they are probably very tight in that respect - but also totally uninteresting because they are just repeating the same models, never taking any risks, never experimenting with anything... and that's what makes them stillborn, imo.

The thing is, unless it is part of your profession, it is probably difficult to endure this analytical listening mode in the cases where you don't like the song... At least for me, if I really don't like a song, it will be a torture to have a listen just to detect its technical aspects. And since I am not a masochist, that's something I will not subject myself to. 

well it's not my favorite pastime either. life is short and if i choose to listen to music (be the mode analytical or not) i'd much rather listen to GOOD music than BAD. :-P
but experimenting on listening to good music is what i do like. there are always some layers to be discovered there...

Backing up a bit... I know people who find Disintegration boring (esp the late middle) because the songs are similarly paced and mainly based on the same riff. You have to give Simon a lot of respect for playing "The Same Deep Water As You" for 9 minutes (watch his hands on Trilogy). The million layers of "Fascination Street" are also based on the same bassline.

that's true. people miss a lot (if not even most of it) on 'disintegration' if they are not prepared to dig into the arrangemental details and "orchestrational colors" of those layered textures. to me the beauty of those textures is that you can actually be both instantly emotionally moved by those layered colours without any analysis whatsoever but also find them just as fascinating when digging into it in analytical detail. that's the marvellous thing about it for me, that it's so strong on both fronts.

[revolt]

Or you can try and detect what specific feature of the song gets your emotional response. Sometimes there's even only a small transition note there that makes all the difference - in "Open" and "Bloodflowers" (which are not masterpieces for me) such a thing happens with the bass guitar line...

The detail I was talking about concerning 'Bloodflowers' is the bass inflection at 39 seconds into the following recording:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXUl6QU07VM

It's the way it modifies the main bassline that had been heard twice up to that point that really does it for me.

I will explain this more clearly. It's possible that I'm entering geek/nerd mode here, but I'll give it a try, anyway... 

The main bass melody of 'Bloodflowers', that which constitutes the basis of the song, is a sequence of 4 notes, each of them played 8 times, and the 4th note is equal to the second, like this:

A A A A A A A A
B B B B B B B B
C C C C C C C C
B B B B B B B B

(Mind you, these are just letters, not the standard representations of DO-RE-MI, etc. Anyway, if any of you knows the exact notes played on that song, feel free to post them here).

You can hear this sequence roughly between second 12 and second 22 of the posted You Tube link recording.

Now, this complete sequence is played 2 times just as it is, and then on the 3rd time it comes, the last 2 notes are different:

A A A A A A A A
B B B B B B B B
D D D D D D D D
E E E E E E E E

That 'D' note is unexpected in that it is lower than the C you were anticipating, which gives the melody a sudden poignant touch. It's like you are at the beach walking in the sea, treading already familiar waters, and suddenly you lose foot. It's no big problem if you can swim, of course, but in the heat of the moment you might find yourself in trouble, if only for a moment.

Now, the whole 'magic' of it does not end here. The melody continues after that E, always on notes that are lower than the starting A, until it comes to its final note - let's call it an X. The thing is, the melody does not really resolve on this X note, that is, when you hear the whole melody you feel that somehow it is not 'complete'. This X only resolves on the A that constitutes the first note in the melody. That is, the end of the melody IS THE BEGINNING of the melody. This is a 'perpetual motion' kind of song.

Conclusion: 'Bloodflowers' was literally conceived to LAST FOREVER. Is this the devil's work or what? 

[firecrasher]

Conclusion: 'Bloodflowers' was literally conceived to LAST FOREVER. Is this the devil's work or what? 

If you can wait till tonight I'll do my best to musically take it apart for you. One of the odder things about being a musician is that you hear things differently. Part of your brain is thinking about how the song is played or the frets or chords, and in my case it's impossible to turn that analyzation off. The song can mean more to you, because once you know how to play it, it's kind of yours too... sometimes you'll like a song a lot more after you learn it... but you probably lose some of the general enjoyment... and you'll wind up at concerts staring at Robert's hands to make sure you're playing it right. (That's not a bad thing!)

[japanesebaby]

One of the odder things about being a musician is that you hear things differently. Part of your brain is thinking about how the song is played or the frets or chords, and in my case it's impossible to turn that analyzation off.

as a fellow musician i do relate to this, although i don't "suffer" from it (either).
what comes to the kind of music in question here,  i suppose my "blessing" is that i don't play guitar so i don't need to focus on people's hands at the concerts. instead, i do use a lot of solfege, figuring out the chord sequencies that way, without looking at how it's being played. i can consciously turn the "solfege mode" off if i want to, so that i'm not paying attention to it (as it takes a lot of CPU power, so to speak). and although i can turn it off, i cannot imagine hearing music without being able to resort to it if i needed to. anyway, i can't turn off most part of the analysation either. 
i suppose the more you do it the more integral part of your hearing (your way how musical ideas/things take shape in your mind and how you grasp them) it becomes.

(btw i always find it really distorted how some people claim that amalysation can "ruin" your musical experience and how analysing is somehow "bad" and "unmusical. instead, it opens new doors but i never found that it closed any of the ones that were already open.)

[firecrasher]

as a fellow musician i do relate to this, although i don't "suffer" from it (either).
what comes to the kind of music in question here,  i suppose my "blessing" is that i don't play guitar so i don't need to focus on people's hands at the concerts. instead, i do use a lot of solfege, figuring out the chord sequencies that way, without looking at how it's being played. i can consciously turn the "solfege mode" off if i want to, so that i'm not paying attention to it (as it takes a lot of CPU power, so to speak). and although i can turn it off, i cannot imagine hearing music without being able to resort to it if i needed to. anyway, i can't turn off most part of the analysation either. 
i suppose the more you do it the more integral part of your hearing (your way how musical ideas/things take shape in your mind and how you grasp them) it becomes.

(btw i always find it really distorted how some people claim that amalysation can "ruin" your musical experience and how analysing is somehow "bad" and "unmusical. instead, it opens new doors but i never found that it closed any of the ones that were already open.)

Analyzing isn't bad or unmusical, it's just... there. Do you also subconsciously analyze in a situation like live music at a restaurant, or if you go out to a club? (This weekend it made the combination of "Billie Jean" and "Laid" (by James) even more bizarre. Then they threw in "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and I thought my head was going to explode. )

Anyways, are there any Cure songs in particular that have meant more to you, either emotionally or musically, after you really started to dig into them? Some songs that sound quite simple really aren't. The riff for "In Your House" is quite difficult to reach, but "Push" is extremely easy. Part of Robert's genius is making complicated patterns sound simple, and simple patterns hard to reach (esp. if you're small-handed), and they're all still fun to play. It's hard to be mopey and play the solos on Mint Car.

[revolt]

Part of Robert's genius is making complicated patterns sound simple, and simple patterns hard to reach (esp. if you're small-handed),

Ha ha, that reminds me that Robert once confessed that as a child he switched from piano to guitar because he thought that at guitar his little sister could not possibly beat him - her hands were too small... 

[revolt]

Conclusion: 'Bloodflowers' was literally conceived to LAST FOREVER. Is this the devil's work or what? 

If you can wait till tonight I'll do my best to musically take it apart for you. One of the odder things about being a musician is that you hear things differently. Part of your brain is thinking about how the song is played or the frets or chords, and in my case it's impossible to turn that analyzation off. The song can mean more to you, because once you know how to play it, it's kind of yours too... sometimes you'll like a song a lot more after you learn it... but you probably lose some of the general enjoyment... and you'll wind up at concerts staring at Robert's hands to make sure you're playing it right. (That's not a bad thing!)

Well, that would be great really. I actually learnt the basic rudiments of music as a child but since I never went on with it it's fair to say that I have forgotten most of it...

[firecrasher]

Sorry I was out car shopping last night and got in late. I'll try again tonight. I started on the piano but haven't had much formal musical education for years (you honestly don't need it if you play rock guitar). But I can give you keys, chord changes, notes etc. The fellow Cure-obsessed friend I'm kind of seeing has a degree in classical composition so he can probably take it further if you'd like.

[revolt]

Sorry I was out car shopping last night and got in late. I'll try again tonight. I started on the piano but haven't had much formal musical education for years (you honestly don't need it if you play rock guitar). But I can give you keys, chord changes, notes etc. The fellow Cure-obsessed friend I'm kind of seeing has a degree in classical composition so he can probably take it further if you'd like.

Thanks a lot, but I wasn't asking for something as serious as that... Just the correct keys for that main bassline melody would be fine.

[firecrasher]

Thanks a lot, but I wasn't asking for something as serious as that... Just the correct keys for that main bassline melody would be fine.

The bass notes are

C# B A F#
C# B A B
C# B E F#
A  B

I made up a pdf tab of the intro for you with PowerTab, it also has Robert's 6 string bass. I'm attaching a screenshot as well, and there's a midi too.

[revolt]

Thanks a lot, but I wasn't asking for something as serious as that... Just the correct keys for that main bassline melody would be fine.

The bass notes are

C# B A F#
C# B A B
C# B E F#
A  B

I made up a pdf tab of the intro for you with PowerTab, it also has Robert's 6 string bass. I'm attaching a screenshot as well, and there's a midi too.

Thanks! The attached pdfs already go somewhat beyond me, since I've never learnt guitar tablatures... I was just a small boy who played a recorder, like a few other small boys and girls in my musical class.

[firecrasher]

Thanks a lot, but I wasn't asking for something as serious as that... Just the correct keys for that main bassline melody would be fine.

The bass notes are

C# B A F#
C# B A B
C# B E F#
A  B

I made up a pdf tab of the intro for you with PowerTab, it also has Robert's 6 string bass. I'm attaching a screenshot as well, and there's a midi too.

Thanks! The attached pdfs already go somewhat beyond me, since I've never learnt guitar tablatures... I was just a small boy who played a recorder, like a few other small boys and girls in my musical class.

You're welcome! The notes on the staff are there too, which is why I made it